Norway’s looming supply deficit

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 0:11

Hello listeners, and welcome to the Montel Weekly Podcast. Bring your energy matters in an informal setting. In today's pod, we discuss the investment climate for new renewables in Norway. From being a powerhouse in the region, the country's grid operator, Startnet, has forecast that Norway become a net importer of electricity in six years time due to a lack of investment in new generation capacity. The country has highly ambitious plans to cut emissions by 55 percent by 2030, compared to 1990 levels, but has so far only managed a 5 percent cut. And with growth in renewables proceeding at a snail's pace, what needs to happen to speed up the energy transition in Norway? I am Richard Sverrelsen, and we will divide this week's episode into two parts to discuss the challenges ahead. for Norway's electricity sector. Starting us off is Lars Ove Skorpion of Pareto Securities. A warm welcome to you, Lars Ove.

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 1:10

Thank you very much.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 1:11

I'd like to just start us off by by talking about the energy crisis. Are we out of the energy crisis now, Lars Ove, do you think?

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 1:18

I think it seems like we're out of it, but of course when it comes to energy and when it comes to You know, gas, and when it comes to electricity in general, you never know what, uh, what, uh, lies in the future. But, uh, right now, it seems like we're in a good position. Mm.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 1:35

And certainly, uh, it's a very wet autumn in, in, in Norway and the Nordic region, so that's helping prices, uh, keep prices quite low.

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 1:42

Yeah, definitely. And, uh, especially, of course, on the east part NO1, is extremely high, uh, reservoir capacity. Actually, for the first time, we broke 100 percent. nobody thought that was possible, but we were there. But then again, uh, most of the N01 is mainly a run of river. So it doesn't really count that much because the reservoir here is only six terawatt hours. And if you contrast that to Blåsjö, uh, the largest reservoir in Norway, in Southern part of Norway, uh, that in itself is 7. 8 terawatt hours in storage capacity. That's huge. Absolutely. Um, we're seeing currently quite low prices. But in recent years, prices have been extremely high. Has that been enough to stimulate investment into new renewable capacity in Norway in particular? No, it has not. Um, and of course, there are many reasons for that. I think one is obviously it takes some time before those signals kind of reach into the The investors, but I don't think the biggest problem is these days are the investors. To be honest, I think there are many reasons why this haven't caught, uh, you know, the speed that it should have. And I think, for instance, one is that, uh, you know, basically the new capacity will be based on on wind, uh, and solar. But also hydro and if you take a start off with the wind, you know, uh, they have a proposed basically introduced, uh, 40 percent uh, tax on top of the already 22 percent tax and retroactively, you know, so of course, when you put up that type of proposal, which by the way, it was later redrawn, but now there's totally unsecurity. What that is going to end up with? Are they going to come back with a 40%? Are they going to come back with 25%? Where, for instance, the salmon tax ended up. Or, uh, you could hope for zero. But, uh, you know, we'll soon know, by the way. Uh, so, um, uh, then... That's due in October, right? Exactly, exactly. But I think that's one main element here. The other one is, of course, that, uh, the government, uh, has grounded every municipality veto when it comes to wind. So, right now, I guess it's fair to say there are only three openly favored municipality when it comes to, to wind, uh, in their municipality. And those are two up north, um, buby and Gabi. And you'd see it all. And I think you have in total 356 municipalities in Norway. And when you know the three of them of positive, then obviously that is, you know, a big, uh, problem in order to get new wind power into the market. So, you know, again, the investors are ready. Uh, they just have to have the opportunity to invest into this, and also, you know, at a, at a, uh, sensible, uh, terms. Uh, that's why this tax, you know, uh, has to go away.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 4:36

We'll talk later to Idavid Moss, and he'll talk a little bit about Hydro's issues with building, uh, their, uh, wind farm, uh, in, in Høyanger, in, in Norway, but, um, uh, If we can go, you obviously speak to a lot of investors, a lot of companies in the renewable sector and the electricity sector in Norway more generally. What are you hearing about their plans for Norway in particular?

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 5:02

I think they are, you know, cautious and I can understand them. And it goes back again to this tax proposal. Today, 72 percent of all the wind in Norway is owned by foreign investors. Uh, they are primarily US based, Swiss based, German based. And of course, when you have invested into this with a project that was probably barely economical and you made an investment of this, probably also based on the long term PPA, maybe 15 years, 20 years. Uh, and then you did that on the basis of 2020, 22 percent tax, um, then when that is proposed now to 62%, then obviously those investors are scared off and, uh, I think that it can only get better because they have missed this really big time now. So, uh, right now I think investors are standing on the sideline and waiting to see what happens when it comes to the tax proposal.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 6:00

Because of the targets, uh, you know, emission reduction targets in Norway are very ambitious. But there isn't an equivalent for new capacity targets. Is there? If I understand the situation correctly,

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 6:13

that is correct. Yeah, I mean, we have, uh, originally 50%. And then in Sharm el Saik last year, we actually increased that with 55 percent cut within 2030, based on the emission in 1990, which was roughly 51 million tonne, right? Now we are at 48. 5 and we're going to go down to 23 million. That's a cut of 25 million ton within seven years. And last year we did 0. 5%. Uh, so obviously that's extremely challenging. And if you saw the party leader debate in, in Arndal this summer, just before the election, it was only the prime minister. Jonas Garstøre, who raised his hand, not even his deputy, uh, the finance minister Trygve Slagsvold Bedum, believed in the binding agreement that Norway has signed, the Paris Agreement, which basically tells that we have to cut 55%.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 7:15

So obviously extremely challenging and if, uh, if, uh, key members of the government are not convinced of the targets or the, the possibility of achieving those, then we're in, um, obviously some, some, some stormy waters, put it that way, uh, Lars Ove.

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 7:29

Yes, we are. And it's going to be interesting to see how this is going to play out because we, you know, on one side we have this binding agreement. But then we are mainly talking about offshore wind, uh, and offshore wind. I don't know why we're doing this, uh, because it's, it's far out in time, but maybe it's so, uh, you know, it's less controversial. Uh, you don't have the same NIMBY effect there as you do on onshore. Uh, and then of course you can talk, uh, and maybe do not do these. To some extent not very popular decisions because it will not be popular to get down to the 23 million ton, uh, c o two, uh, which is our goal for the next seven years. That's gonna be very tough. And, uh, I'm not really sure if the, the politicians are, you know, clearly stated that they don't believe this. And I'm not even sure if the, the population here is ready to basically, Uh, undergo what that requires

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 8:25

on one hand. It's clearly quite easy to set targets, but providing incentives and putting the cash up to produce new capacity is much harder. Um, what would you like to see put in place?

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 8:38

I think, you know, by the way, some good news out there. I mean, take, for instance, the regulatory body that is basically handling the permits. They are finally now increasing their staff so they can handle more uh, Uh, concessions or permits, if you like, so that's a good sign. It's about time. But still, we know that, uh, to get a hydro project through the permitting body takes maybe easily seven years. And of course, that's, uh, that's, uh, crazy. I mean, it should take, uh, maybe a year or two, max three, if you ask me. Now, solar is gonna be big. Uh, you know, they should at least make sure that the solar project moves very fast through the permitting system. Hmm. Um, and also offshore wind, you know, the ambitions there are so low. We're talking 1. 5 gigawatt times 2, Sörlund Osjö 2 and Utseran Nord. They are talking about more, uh, projects now and, but, but it's again, it's too slow. Uh, and also they are quite stingy, you know, uh, they don't want to really pay what probably is needed, uh, for, to get this offshore wind off the ground. So. I think they have to do basically everything, the permitting, uh, maybe even see if they can find a solution to where, you know, municipalities are blocking wind in their area. Maybe they should be better incentivized, uh, and of course, as I referred to a couple of times, the tax situation. That has to be, uh, taken, you know, and basically made. Um, made investor friendly, uh, take for instance, battery, uh, if you want to install a new turbine or maybe would like to have pump, uh, hydro storage, uh, you will then over the next one and a half year face a marginal tax rate of 90 percent if you, and after one and a half year, you will face roughly 67%. If you did that with a lithium ion battery, probably produced in. China, then you will have to pay 22 percent tax. So three and a half times the tax rate for something produced in China compared to already store storage capacity that we have. And we have massive storage in our way. We have 87. 3 terawatt hours in our storage and there are huge potential to put in pump hydro storage, put in new turbines to increase the efficiency of this so basically you can produce more. when the prices are high. But again, they, I don't think they really know what they're doing there because, uh, you know, giving, uh, you know, putting these tax proposals in there at the same time, by the way, as they are promoting investments into batteries in for instance, Northern Norway. I, I'm not saying that they shouldn't do that, but I'm saying that they at least should promote the biggest battery in Norway. Which is actually homegrown and has 100 percent local content. And that's the low hanging fruit here, you think? It is, it is, clearly. Um, because this is basically something that, uh, I think it's going to come. I think they're going to, uh, see this. Uh, but basically, uh, we have to complain so they understand what they're doing. Because they're not really supporting, uh, Uh, to get, uh, a better balance of the power because now mainly new power is going to be intermittent solar, uh, wind, and you have to balance that with also getting more regulated power into the system.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 12:17

When you say they, I guess you mean the policy, the government, the policymakers and the regulators in one.

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 12:22

Exactly.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 12:23

Um, Offshore wind also faces a lot of headwind in other countries, notably in the UK auction, which failed to get any bids, but Norway is not really known for its solar resources. What's, what's, what's the outlook for, for solar in Norway then?

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 12:38

It's very interesting. If you go back three years, I would say, you know, what are you talking about guys? Solar. Uh, but of course, uh, at that time we came out, uh, of 2020 with a power price of 10 And then at that price, and by the way, before that, the lo, the 10 years before that was 35 euros. So in that kind of environment, solar doesn't really, at that time have a chance. But then of course, uh, the p uh, price, the L l C E of, uh, solar has come down significantly as, uh, the power prices has increased also significantly, especially in the South where the solar conditions are good. So basically, if you're looking at. Maybe 60 to 70 euros, um, uh, in the, uh, in the South for power prices, where the solar conditions are good and falling LCOE that are probably now in the probably 50 falling towards 40 and is probably going to go even, uh, lower. And that makes sense. Um, and it, but it didn't three years ago. Absolutely. Especially if you have the batteries to, to, I mean, we're not there with seasonal, seasonal storage yet in terms of batteries from, from, from solar. But, uh, are you also concerned that, you know, there there's maybe faster permitting things can speed up a greater acceptance of wind in neighboring countries to Norway. Is this the concern that you're seeing Norwegian companies? decide to invest in Sweden, Denmark or Finland instead? Yeah, I think Cloudberry is an example of this. I just got out of their presentation, and they basically say that the political risk in Norway is higher than Denmark and Sweden. And they are, of course, like to be diversified country wise, but also technology wise. And I think that, um, obviously the investor climate in Sweden and Finland has been more favorable, but also Sweden is not without problem because also in Sweden they have municipal veto and actually eight out of ten projects are stopped in a municipal and now voices in Sweden would like to actually abandon that system. So, uh, but that probably no politician in Norway would even raise that question now. Uh, so I think that is dead at least for a couple of years, but, but maybe that's the way to go. Um, but, uh, again, uh, When you have an oil fund of the size we do, it's not really urgent anything, you know.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 15:02

Oh, absolutely. And I think you mentioned the presentation there from Cloudberry. I should also mention to our listeners that we're speaking at your annual energy conference in Oslo. If I can just round off, Lars Ove, by talking about, you know, the price outlook, obviously, there are forecasts for rising demand, and not so much in terms of expansion in supply, not yet until maybe the mid 2030s is what I'm hearing, but what does that mean for prices, particularly in, in, in your home country of Norway?

Lars Ove Skjorpen, Director, Pareto Securities: 15:33

Now, I think, first of all, you have, of course, the regional differences where, you know, the prices up north are significantly lower than The price down south and in south, uh, which is the price area and no two, they just got in, you know, just two, three years ago, got a new two new cables, Germany, UK, both 1. 5, four gigawatt each that has effectively made that price area, uh, a part of, you know, Germany, because if you look at the correlation between prices in, uh, Germany and NO2, it's 94 percent over the last year to date and, uh, the level is also very much in line. Uh, but, you know, the difference is, of course, when you get extreme weather like Hans, we did have a couple of weeks back, then the power prices in Norway went down. And, of course, also, you know, uh, changes in climate, uh, and wind condition, et cetera, et cetera. But, uh, uh, clearly the power prices will... And if you look at Startnet, they expect to see prices in the N01, uh, actually converge to the German prices around 70 euro per megawatt hour out on the curve. Volue is, uh, roughly, uh, 65 to 70 euros also, but a big difference between what Volue is expecting is that they expect the power prices in N04 up north. actually to converge to the power prices in south of Norway and Germany, which is very different from what the state owned TSO status is telling us because they expect the power prices up north to be in the 20 to 25 euro per megawatt range out in 27 and 28 and that's of course Very much lower than what they themselves expect, uh, in the South. It could be that they are responsible for the grid, making sure there aren't any bottlenecks, uh, within North and South. But still, uh, it's an interesting, uh, at least difference between two of the latest forecasts that, uh, came out and they are just a week, uh, or two old.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 17:56

Um, you know, let's hope that in October, uh, there is some sense and that, uh, the government provides the incentives for Norway to continuing being a green powerhouse, um, in Europe. Um, and the world now. Thank you very much for being a guest on the Montauk weekly podcast. Thank you. In the second part of this podcast on an investment climate in Norway's electricity sector, we speak to Arvid Moss, who's the executive vice president at Hydro Energy. A warm welcome to you, Arvid.

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 18:27

Thank you.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 18:27

Obviously. Hydro is a very important, uh, industrial group, not just consuming huge amounts of electricity, but also producing it. Um, what's your view? I mean, Norway has very ambitious targets, which seem maybe a little bit overambitious, but in terms of, um, emissions reductions, but very new capacities being built. What's your general view on what's happening in your home country?

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 18:56

Well, I think that we are, um, we are very ambitious on the climate targets, as you said, and, and, uh, the main discussion in Norway has been around, are we going to reduce with 45 percent or 50 percent or 55 percent to 2030 when it comes to CO2 emissions, but there has been very little debate about, well, what does it take to get there when it comes to the need for renewable power? That debate has been to almost absent until the last year. And, uh, I had a good feeling last summer actually, because then I felt that more and more politicians were also talking about, we need to build more power. We need to lose up again or, or, um, make, uh, let's say the regulation, uh, get the regulation in place so that we get more onshore wind. But, you know, then the state budget last autumn really pulled the carpet again, you know, increasing taxes on onshore wind, resource wind tax, high price tax. So, so, so I, for now, until I see a new state's budget, we are definitely behind and the regulation in Norway is not really good enough to reach our targets.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 20:08

So, I mean. Hydro is one of the largest electricity users in Norway, as I said, but how crucial is it for you that Norway remains a net exporter of electricity with relatively low prices?

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 20:21

I think that, uh, we, we should really... Aim to be a net exporter. That's very important. We need to have a surplus. And the reason why is that, you know, the variation, uh, in Norway between a wet year and a dry year is approximately 50 terabyte hour. And that is out of a total production of around So it means that, you know, we, we, to avoid that we come into deficit situations when there are dry years, we need to have a certain surplus because if it's so that we, every second year we have a deficit and we have to import, you know, then the average price will be too high. So we need to have a surplus that is sufficient so that we are. maybe say only one or tenth year or something is into a dry, uh, in a, in, in a dry year where it needs to be an import. So, so to really keep the price level acceptable, we need to have a good surplus of power. Uh, if not, we are not able to build industry in Norway.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 21:19

Absolutely. I think I want to come back to what you said about the state budget and maybe some of your, your concerns here or your hopes even, uh, out of it, but, um, How concerned are you that investments are kind of stopping up in terms of, uh, onshore winds due to local opposition, um, hydro is, the expansion of hydropower in the country is limited by environmental restrictions, you know, and offshore wind with high costs. I mean, how, how concerned are you about the, the, the, the buildup of renewable capacity in Norway?

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 21:51

I am really concerned, and that is what the Hydro also have expressed more and more clearly over the last years that we see a risk for deficit or a very small surplus in just a few years time. So, you know, we have had a ban now on wind power for, Yeah, it was four years now, you know, and now it's, uh, they have loosened up the ban, but as long as the taxes do not allow us to, or is it prohibitive, then there will be no new onshore wind. And then as you said on, on hydropower, uh, very limited opportunities. And offshore wind is beyond 2030. So, so, you know, it is a, again, this, there is no, has not really been a, uh, realistic approach to the, the, the needs, you know, the, what we need to 2030. So I, I really hope that we can now get a broad political, uh, uh, let's say majority in, in the parliament this autumn, that one, uh, Brings a new taxation system for wind power that is acceptable. Two, reduces the tax for hydropower so that we can build more hydropower. And three, that we get also increased, uh, capacity, uh, at the authorities to really reduce the concession, the time it takes to get new concessions and so on. So, so that has also been a, a, uh, a bottleneck. So, so all these three things needs to come in place, uh, then I may turn more optimistic.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 23:21

We're not optimistic, but at the moment there's a sense of pessimistic cloud here, aren't we? Yeah, it is. Yeah. But, I mean, you've recently announced plans to build a large one gigawatt onshore wind, um, farm near, near your aluminium plant at Højanger in Western Norway. But that, that, you know, that's, that project is struggling now with local opposition. Um, what are the expectations that it could come online?

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 23:45

First, it is one terawatt hour, uh, capacity that we're talking about, uh, uh, we, uh, we have worked closely with the local municipality, uh, to explain now what we are going to do to document, uh, the effect on nature, uh, how it would look like, what are the Positive and negative effects of this, uh, uh, so, so that is, uh, that we will continue to do, uh, the new election didn't really change much of the local situation, but of course, we need to, uh, the new, uh, the new mayor or the old mayor, the new mayor, he needs to, uh, see to do that. He gets a majority behind a majority. Uh, a possibility for us to mature the project because that's the first step. It's not to decide, it's really to, it's really to analyze, make an analysis of the consequences for nature, for society. Uh, et cetera, et cetera. That is the first step. And then, if that turns out to be, uh, too negative, of course, then the local municipality can vote no in the end. So there is two steps here. One is to have a yes to a, uh, to, to analyze the consequences. And two, in the end, uh, do we want the project? So, so, uh, we think that, uh, it is, would be very, uh, very sad if, um, if, uh, the, There is a, uh, um, uh, veto against really understanding the facts. So that, but we, we will, um, we, uh, we will continue to work, uh, uh, in a good dialogue locally, uh, because we need their acceptance. Yeah, we need the local... Yeah, we need the local acceptance, and, uh... And, of course, there's a lot of workplaces that we talk about that can, is at, is at risk. And, uh, we want to develop this local society in Høyanger with more production of, uh, metal based on, on post consumer scrap. We want to build a pilot there to, to run with green hydrogen. We really want to develop this as an, as an industrial hub and then, but then we need more power.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 25:46

Yeah. And, but also the local community needs to realize that, that a lot of the revenues will flow to the local communities, such as schools, hospitals, and, and I'm sure it's all about putting the facts on the table here, isn't it? Because a lot of the opposition to wind in Norway, Norway and elsewhere is, is about, uh, is this, this, this kind of, it's almost emotional reaction against these turbines.

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 26:06

Yeah, it is. And, and, uh, first of all, we have to accept that there are different views and there are, you can come to different conclusions based on what you. put most weight on. So our job is, is really to document as good as we can with the external support. What are the different types of consequences and then decisions needs to be take, taken. But I think that it is, uh, uh, we cannot take away emotions. They will always be there, but, but, uh, uh, we have to also to, to take a holistic picture on this is what does it really take. To both reduce climate emissions, safe workplaces and make people live around in Norway and create greener products that we can have also for the future. So we have to... Admit that, uh, to really get there, uh, get, uh, a good society with low emissions, um, there may be, uh, some nature that we need to, uh, then, uh, let's say, put windmills into.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 27:04

Yeah, there's some payoffs here, isn't there? Yeah, there's some payoffs. But the quote, I mean, but onshore wind is obviously a quick fix given the constrictions and restrictions of other forms of power generations, as you rightly said, Arvid. But I mean, uh, do you have faith in, in the politicians to understand what's at stake here? Um,

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 27:20

Yeah, I have. Uh, and I, I think that, uh, uh, when I, when I, when I, when I talk to politicians at, at, uh, national level, uh, in, in absolutely most of the parties, there is an clear understanding that what this, what needs to happen. But, uh, of course, now they have given the veto rights to the local municipalities. So that's where, why we have to shift now. First, first, first is really to get the right decisions in Parliament this autumn. And second, uh, and third and fourth for us will be to work with the local municipalities to get their, uh, acceptance for the first phase, which are analysis and documentation of facts. And second decision to accept a windmill or so on. So, so that is, so that is where we are now. So I, I believe that in, uh, I believe in the end we will solve this, but it will take time.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 28:15

I mean, what, what do you think on the political side of things? What, what should be done? What could have been done differently, uh, in the past? And what, what do you think is the way forward here in providing the right framework for a company such as you to, to, to, to, to... To boost the renewable capacity in the country.

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 28:31

I, I think what was wrong was that, um, there was no connection between climate targets and renewable targets. So we, we only discussed the, the, the one side of, of the equation. Uh, we didn't, the politicians didn't really discuss at all or put on the table that, uh, we have now increased the, uh, c o two, uh, reduction targets to 55%. And by the way, this requires that we build 40 ttt hour of renewable power to 2030. That was never said, never said. And, you know, this is what I think was the main error that, that was, that the, that debate or that discussion should have been on both parameters all the time. Uh, so, so now I think that, um, that's the job to be done that on, on, on national level, that, uh, Uh, that each political party needs to find its way to, to describe and discuss it with their local politicians. We, we, we, we will do what we can do with local politicians, but I think also that each political party in Norway needs to also sit down between the central politicians and the local politicians to really... ensure that they see the same picture. It puts a lot of responsibility on the local politicians, uh, but, uh, I think they will take that responsibility in the end. But as I said, this is, uh, we have to work together now. We have to work together. I think that is the key that, uh, we have lost many years now, uh, on this. And, and now, now it's really time to act, uh, with, uh, with speed.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 29:56

And it's, it's, it's, A bit of a reality check, reality check as well in, in reference to what's going on in the environment around us. You're seeing floods in Norway, heat waves, hurricanes, absolutely. You know, droughts as ever. So it's the, the time is pressing as well.

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 30:09

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that, uh, we, we need to, we need to build a, a more robust power system in total. Uh, and of course, the last years, uh, both with the, with the peak in energy prices and, you know, the, the storms and everything is, is a wake up call. So, So, uh, so, so to, but, but it needs to be an, as I said, an educated, uh, dialogue. It is critical that this is not only, uh, coming with, uh, with let's say it's easy solutions. It, there are dilemmas. We have to face it. There are dilemmas. But, uh, as a society at large, we need to take also some tough decisions from time to time to get there. Absolutely.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 30:47

Arvid, thank you very much for being a guest on the Montel Weekly Podcast.

Arvid Moss, Executive Vice President, Hydro Energy.: 30:49

Thank you. To you. Thank you. Thank you.